Disclaimer: This interview is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions. In Practise is an independent publisher and all opinions expressed by guests are solely their own opinions and do not reflect the opinion of In Practise.

{audio:0:00:01} Matt, can you open with some background about your current business?

{audio:0:00:08} My name is Matt Anderson and I am the MD of Marketplace AMP. We are an Amazon specialist agency; one of the leaders in the UK. We focus on grocery, food and drink, pets and health and beauty brands, in the UK, EU and USA. I’ve been working on Amazon for the last 11 years.

{audio:0:00:34} What is your split in your total ad spend from your clients, between the major platforms of Amazon, Facebook or any of the other digital platforms?

{audio:0:00:44} About 80% of our spend is through Amazon. We work with other marketplaces, such as Ocado, Walmart and eBay.

{audio:0:00:58} Let’s say that I am a large CPG or food-product brand, what different formats are currently available on Amazon, for me to advertise?

{audio:0:01:15} Amazon advertising is vast now; there are a number of different formats you can use to advertise there. Let’s just roll back and look at a traditional paperclip version; people that have worked at Google will understand how that works. There are sponsored products, so you can make your products stand out – health bars, for example – and that is just a product ad or a banner. You then roll out into types of display targeting, as well.

{audio:0:01:51} Across the customer journey, in the buy box and on the product page, it is getting more and more sophisticated with being able to target consumers who used similar products in the last 30 days or interest groups, as well. You can start rolling out sponsored brand videos, for targeting consumers.

{audio:0:02:17} It differs from Google because, rather than just looking at the key words, you can target specific ASINs or specific SKUs of your competitors, for example. It’s quite a cutthroat world on Amazon. Over the top of that is a demand side platform, for which we have got a seat, as an agency. Basically, for every consumer, Amazon will put you into buckets of interest and what products you have been in the market for and which products you have bought before. It builds up a vast number of data points about consumers, across the Amazon platform, across the app, across Alexa, across Amazon Go. We build up a profile of consumers who have got the highest propensity to buy.

{audio:0:03:10} DSP is slightly more sophisticated because it uses machine learning to understand that you are more likely to buy football memorabilia on Amazon than me, because I prefer rugby. It will learn over time, so the output is quite sophisticated. It can learn what types of interest groups and demographics are best suited for your brand. Then we can actually follow that consumer across the web – as you can with Google – by laying hundreds of different news sites, Food Channel, Discovery and so on. You can really drive vast amounts of traffic into the listings, as well.

{audio:0:03:59} It’s a complex beast and I think one of the reasons why it is accelerating so rapidly because, over the last three or four years, it’s gone from quite a rudimentary and clunky platform to a very sophisticated one. They have clearly been investing a lot of money in it.

{audio:0:04:20} How have you seen brands evolve, in the way they use the sponsored brands format?

{audio:0:04:29} The sponsored brands format is the banner ad at the top. A lot of brands got quite focused on branded search. I understand that because when marketing directors search for their brand, they want to be able to see your products and your ads. But 77% of people on Amazon go onto Amazon to be inspired about brands to buy and will search generics. They won’t search for a toilet roll brand, but they will search for toilet roll, or whatever it may be.

{audio:0:05:11} What we are trying to educate customers about is that if you want to really grow your piece of the pie, you want to be focusing on generic search. The way it has evolved is looking higher up the purchase funnel. For example, if you are looking for cleaning products, you might be looking for bleach, you might be looking for surface cleaner. But you want to be inspired by a storefront that shows you the whole range of products, rather than just a specific one. Now they have got a video format and there is a spotlight format, as well. Consumers can navigate through the store, on a mobile format, in a very sophisticated way, to aid their buying mission.

{audio:0:06:03} How do you see video changing the return on the sponsored ad format?

{audio:0:06:09} I’ve been in digital for over 20 years. When you are looking at social or anything on the web, video will outperform everything from a glanced view to clicks and so on. We’re seeing that in a similar fashion, on Amazon. The click-through rate is much higher; the engagements are much higher on video. It is a cheaper cost per click format, but I don’t necessarily think that’s the format; I think that’s because less brands have enough video to deal with that so there is less competition.

{audio:0:06:50} Do Amazon help the brands with the creative, around video?

{audio:0:06:56} That is an issue for point of entry but yes, they do. They have a video creative build up, which is quite rudimentary and has a stock motion element to it. It doesn’t look highly polished but it can help you do that. That said, there are loads of different types of ad format or agencies that can help. There are a lot of stock video libraries – such as Shutterstock – that can help you with that video, as well. But Amazon do provide a rudimentary format although, to be honest, a lot of our clients don’t really find that it provides a high enough quality video experience to be on brand, as such. But if you are a seller, for example, and you are launching a brand, it’s good enough.

{audio:0:07:51} How has the pricing changed, over the last few years, for those banners on the key products?

{audio:0:07:58} When we first started talking about Amazon, I think about 46p a click was the average in the UK. Now, we’re at 90p plus. Over the last three years, there has been about a 100% increase in cost per click. You are going to find that with any platform. I think more and more competition is going to drive those prices up.

{audio:0:08:42} Is that in your grocery category or broadly across all categories on Amazon?

{audio:0:08:48} Basically, that’s across our grocery category. But certainly, things like supplements are ferociously expensive, as well as dog supplements, for that matter. Also things such as facial serums or high-end moisturizers have a much higher cost per click. It is similar within electronics, no doubt, particularly around Black Friday and the like. It is not uncommon to see £10 to £15 a click, in some categories.

{audio:0:09:28} That said, if you look at the US, monthly revenue of $10 to $15 million, within a market, it is worth investing your money to get decent advice.

{audio:0:09:44} How do you see that 90p evolving, in the UK?

{audio:0:09:50} Looking at Amazon advertising, internationally, it has grown 77% in the first quarter this year. Again, over the next couple of years, it will probably double again. What we’ve seen in the grocery and pets category is that Covid has really changed traditional industries that were very focused on bricks and mortar. Arguably, they should be really focused on bricks and clicks now and a lot of them are. The bigger brands have got a whole department looking at bricks and clicks; places such as Tesco, Sainsbury’s, Walmart and so on. Amazon is a part of that mix now.

{audio:0:10:45} What has really moved the grocery category on is Amazon rolling out Amazon Go in the UK. There are stores already appearing in London. There is whole, full shed sized version which is moving to be launched in the UK soon; fully-automated, walk in, walk out and bills your app. That is really focused the sales teams for the food industry. It has moved quite quickly; I think Covid has moved everything on by three to five years, in terms of the attitude of brands.

{audio:0:11:29} Are they moving spend from in-store promotions, product placement marketing spend? Or is it actually coming from Google and other digital channels?

{audio:0:11:47} There are all sorts of ways you can spend money with supermarkets. For example, in-store magazines, in terms of ad placement; that’s one area. Certainly, for things like Facebook, there are a lot of brands spending significant sums of money driving traffic to their own-branded stores. You’ve got your own-branded website, for example and you’re doing really well if you’re getting a conversion that is 3% to 5%. But if you’re driving traffic into Amazon listings, then you’re looking at between 10% and 25%, 28% conversion; usually 10% plus. The conversion of Amazon, with the one click buy button and things like that, is significantly higher. It’s not just driving traffic and third parties into the branded site, it’s also driving it to Amazon which people are looking at AB testing with, as well as moving spend; there is more move from Facebook than there is from Google.

{audio:0:13:10} Why is that? What’s not competitive about Facebook?

{audio:0:13:15} Google has a lot of the data across the consumer journey. By that I mean, even assisted sales or demographics. Yes, you could argue that, to a certain extent, you’re going to get that data from Facebook, but Facebook knows what you like; Amazon – and Google, perhaps to a slightly lesser extent, although they have a lot of Colabs with the likes in Carrefour in France, for example – sure as hell has the data. With Facebook, people say they like all different types of music and even different football teams and then go and support someone else.

{audio:0:14:05} Also, the whole bots and fake data thing, on fake accounts on Facebook, has damaged their brand in the mind of serious marketeers who really want to know the data is on point. That’s one of the areas I think it’s lost out to.

{audio:0:14:28} Amazon, obviously, stands alone in the fact that they have almost pure transactional data, in terms of what people are buying on the platform?

{audio:0:14:34} Yes, and the whole ‘what you like’ thing is being filled in with the likes of Alexa. You’re asking Alexa, loading certain skills and Alexa will know what type of music you are listening to. That data doesn’t just sit in a separate pot with Alexa; it sits centrally, alongside everything you’ve bought, everything you’ve viewed. You could even throw into the pot things like Ring, which is an Amazon agency; Amazon will even know when you are in and out of the house. Amazon know that if you are more likely to buy something when you are inside the house, then it will serve up ads when you are in the house. It’s at that level of data, whereas Facebook doesn’t have that really rich data set.

{audio:0:15:29} What Amazon is really good is the long-term strategy game. It might not be leveraging as much from the data it has with Alexa, but there is a long-term strategy there to out maneuver and cut Google out of the loop, to a certain extent. They’re launching voice pads on Amazon, later this year, in the UK.

{audio:0:15:54} How important do you think Alexa is, in the advertising strategy?

{audio:0:16:01} It’s a double-edged sword. I think it helps fill in a lot of gaps for Amazon. We are based just outside of Cambridge and the worldwide R&D headquarters for Alexa is actually in Cambridge because it’s world class AI and so on. The guys at Alexa were saying, we’ll never put ads on Alexa and I just thought, that’s not happening. To be fair, they were toeing the party line, but now that’s coming in play. Amazon is looking for that frictionless consumer journey; the buy button technology; the one click that they patented. Alexa, can I order some more toilet rolls or cleaner or food or health bars please and then it just orders it for you. If it is included within the whole Ring type ecosystem, you won’t even have to go to your laptop.

{audio:0:17:15} My theory on it is that Amazon is looking at ways of just cutting Google out of the mix. Amazon actually pays a lot of money to Google, through pay per click advertising, to drive traffic to the site. Finding frictionless ways for the Alexa devices, overall, which are voice and screen enabled is, ultimately, the long-term game that they are playing.

{audio:0:17:45} Do you mean that the advertisement will be played through Alexa when you ask for a certain product? Alexa would suggest X branded product which, effectively, would be an ad; almost a primer to buy the product?

{audio:0:17:59} Yes. No doubt, if you’re lucky enough to be going to Wembley tomorrow, to watch the game, you might be saying, Alexa, what’s the weather like tomorrow at Wembley. Alexa will think, I know Will likes football, so he might like this.

{audio:0:18:18} Do you need an umbrella? Do you need this merch?

{audio:0:18:26} Currently, are they not using that data from Alexa or Ring? Is not integrated into the retargeting you get on their advertising?

{audio:0:18:33} As I understand it, things like the DSP are a data point for targeting people. The demand side platform will be able to understand which person is most likely to buy a product, versus someone else. There will be data points there that are being leveraged. As a caveat, I haven’t seen under the hood, but from all the discussions and joining up the links and working out how things work from our side, I would be very surprised if they’re not already leveraging that data.

{audio:0:19:08} Are they maximizing it? Probably not, but they are collecting it through all the devices.

{audio:0:19:15} If we believe that voice is the new platform, then they are in the driving seat, ahead of Google?

{audio:0:19:23} Yes, absolutely. Then it goes back to our friends at Facebook. Bizarrely, Facebook is playing catch up and has a few beta projects, with various devices and they’re pushing the Portal quite hard, at the moment. But they are way behind the curve on that, which is rather surprising for an organization with so much spending power.

{audio:0:19:56} Do you mean they are behind in voice?

{audio:0:20:00} I think they are way behind in voice, that being another touchpoint for the consumer.

{audio:0:20:10} I guess they’ve got AR and VR that they are betting on, it seems?

{audio:0:20:14} Yes, you’re probably right. Rolling forward, and we’ve got to think long term, most companies in the UK think two or three years ahead; Amazon thinks 10, 20, 30 years ahead. You only have to see, with the Amazon Go stores, where you can just walk in with an app, pick something up and it bills you. It’s that whole frictionless consumer journey; voice makes perfect sense from that point of view.

{audio:0:20:52} Matt, can we discuss DSP? Could you share some context as to how you’ve seen the demand side platform at Amazon improve over the years?

{audio:0:21:02} Originally, it used to be called Amazon Media Group, which is a bit more like the display banner ad advertising function; top of the funnel, launching a product, here’s a video; we can do detailed page views and then retarget people afterwards. It was a rudimentary system in place.

{audio:0:21:33} Whereas now, it is very sophisticated in the fact that you can overlay pixel data from a branded website’s traffic and then overlay that data, like you can with a lookalike audience within DSP, as well as on email lists. You can also look at lots of in-market audiences, for people that are in the market for certain products or are known to buy certain products. The demographic data is very in depth; you can overlap those audiences. It is not only very sophisticated targeting but, from a marketing point of view, you can really understand your consumer better.

{audio:0:22:18} I just remember, five or six years ago, sitting in a meeting with Amazon that had bought back some data from a homewares brand that I was working for at the time. The marketing director said, our target consumer is 25 to 45 year old women and Amazon turned around and said, here’s some data from the 500,000 consumers that have bought your product over the last year. Approximately half of them are men; they are based in the London area. A lot of them have got a high interest in granola, for some reason. Pulling back all this real rich data you could see really surprised the marketing team of this company.

{audio:0:23:05} How do you compare that to Google, in terms of the quality of that data and targeting?

{audio:0:23:13} With Google, if you have your website set up correctly, you should be able to have some demographic data, although in my experience, that seems to be quite broad brush, around people that may be searching for certain kinds of content on Chrome. But it probably doesn’t take into account everyone in the household. I share my Amazon account with my wife, so there is probably a bit of that going on, but it’s probably a little bit more accurate in that respect.

{audio:0:23:55} From an Amazon point of view, there is everything that you have ever bought, on the whole platform. Whereas Google has some of that data, but not all of it.

{audio:0:24:11} It has more search history and tracking about what you are actually searching for online, on the web?

{audio:0:24:19} Yes. Then Amazon overlays the data against thing such as Nielsen that know if you’ve got a baby on the way, if you’re married, what your approximate income is and all that type of data. Obviously, bearing in mind that it is laying it over lots of different data sets, such as Alexa, Ring and the app, as well as Twitch, if you are a gamer. In the States, if you’ve got a Whole Foods card, they’ve got the data again.

{audio:0:24:58} I guess the lookalike audiences were somewhat pioneered by Google originally, but then Facebook seems to have taken that to another level. How would you compare the lookalike audiences on Facebook to what Amazon could potentially do with this DSP?

{audio:0:25:16} I think the ways you can use lookalike audiences on Facebook is slightly more sophisticated, in terms of the way the data can be spliced and diced; look at a direct lookalike, with X amount of accuracy. Certainly, it’s coming on in leaps and bounds, in that respect, just like the attribution data that is building. With Amazon Attribution, you can see where the traffic has come from and converted against. Again, that is another data set that Amazon is building up. I’ll have a pixel on your website, Mr Brand, and I will have all the data that you are driving in to our site, as well, and we’ll work out what works best at selling your products and then we’ll go and create our own. That’s the way that Amazon usually thinks. There is a lot of data there.

{audio:0:26:20} Can we just look at exactly how this would work? Let’s say I’m a Mondelēz and I want to spend $10 million on the new DSP. I guess, first of all, I need an agency like yourself? What is the process?

{audio:0:26:45} It’s either a DSP agency or Amazon can run it direct, although they do have certain thresholds; it’s something like £10,000 a month in the UK and $100,000 in the States. You’ve got a high threshold there for a number of brands just for a test and learn budget, for example. DSP agencies can help with that. Amazon tend to not be massively responsive about analyzing and tweaking the data, whereas an agency would be a bit more agile and you can be more involved and closer to the data. So there are those two routes, but you have to be accredited through Amazon.

{audio:0:27:36} I feed in my data from my site or, as you said, have a pixel on my site that tracks the traffic and can then integrate with Amazon? How sophisticated is it today?

{audio:0:27:47} There are a few things you need to bear in mind about the ads that you are showing. There are endemic ads which, essentially, look like the Amazon listings where you add reviews and tweak the text and things like that. Or you can do ads creative so they will have video or add created banners to drive traffic. You don’t actually have to have the pixel and the lookalike audience set up but you do get more accurate results from the get go, because you understand what your best converting demographic is, as opposed to having to do lots of test and learn.

{audio:0:28:40} As with anything you do in digital marketing, the more data you have from the get go, the less of your budget you have to waste on test and learn to find out what the best audience and the best tactic is.

{audio:0:28:56} What are the type of returns you’ve seen on the DSP, for typical grocery brands?

{audio:0:29:02} From launch, five to six ROAS, for a lot of the grocery brands; up to 25 times return on ad spend, if you are doing things such as retargeting. Grocery at FMCG is about return customers and lifetime value. The first time you acquire a customer, you would be lucky to break even in a lot of respects, but if you’re keeping that lifetime value of the consumer, then it makes for the business model. If you’ve got someone that bought a product in the last 60 to 90 days, you can retarget them with a subscribe and save offer, for example. Then that person is ordering, automatically, every month. That’s when you can get a really high return on investment.

{audio:0:29:54} The higher up the funnel you go, the more demographic and off-site targeting you are doing, that return on ad spend will drop. That is more of an awareness play; for the metrics, you would be looking at detailed video and page views and things like that. You are looking to fill that bottom funnel up with qualified customers. You are looking at three to six times ROAS for a typical grocery brand. But you need to bear in mind, versus electronics, the average price is much lower in grocery.

{audio:0:30:39} How does that ROAS compare to other categories?

{audio:0:30:43} It can be much higher in things like homewares, for example, such as if you are selling mattresses online as well as in higher-end electronics. When you are targeting certain audiences, certain demographics, certain times of the year, the costs for acquisition will increase. My area of expertise is around grocery and health and beauty and pets.

{audio:0:31:20} What type of conversion do you see? Let’s say, I’ve got a health supplement brand, if I spend $10 what is, typically, the conversion you get? How do you look at that conversion?

{audio:0:31:37} Conversion is, typically, between 10% and 15%. To put that in context, you’re lucky to get 3% on a branded website. Your conversion rate is going to be much higher.

{audio:0:31:58} How does that compare to other channels that the marketers have?

{audio:0:32:04} Certainly, from the Amazon point of view, it tends to be higher than other channels; higher than eBay, for example. But then the cost of acquisition is lower on eBay, although they are bringing out their own pay per click advertising soon, so that will probably increase, to be honest.

{audio:0:32:28} Have you seen pricing materially change on the DSP? Is that the click number that you gave earlier; the 45p to 90p?

{audio:0:32:37} That was the pay per click. The average cost per click on DSP is £1.20 and CPM is about £2.30. If you’re looking at the likes of Facebook, CPM is as high as £15 or £20; even higher for Instagram. You can be hitting a much wider audience; more bang for your bucks

{audio:0:33:13} How do you see that evolving? If you look at the quality of the data and where Amazon are in the purchasing funnel, how do you see the CPM evolving over the next five years?

{audio:0:33:26} Basically, I think you are looking at it double over the next year or so. With Covid, things are starting to balance out and get back to normal. Amazon is still really creaking at the seams because of the amount of stock being shoved in. In Germany, they are having big issues with stock and being able to find warehousing space, at the moment. That competition will push the prices up; that’s my prediction.

{audio:0:34:15} Are the buyers of the DSP mainly the actual brand owners, as oppose to third party merchants and sellers?

{audio:0:34:25} For general pay to click, it tends to be a lot of sellers and distributors; any man and his dog. But it tends to be the brands, at the moment. For a lot of the sellers and distributors, it’s a numbers game. To put that amount of investment into a brand that they might not be able to buy as cheaply next year, it doesn’t make sense from a business point of view, unless they have licensed deals and exclusivity. But it does tend to be the brands investing in it.

{audio:0:35:12} That said, you can advertise on DSP and not sell on Amazon. You could just use it as an awareness platform. I’ve seen things such as law firms and investment firms looking to use it, as well. It is not an area of my expertise, but that could be an interesting play, as well.

{audio:0:35:32} So other non sellers on Amazon are just using it as brand advertising?

{audio:0:35:37} Yes; you can use it as brand advertising and drive traffic to your website, as well. There is one client that we have that does both. It will look at Amazon to drive traffic into their own website. In my humble opinion, that is probably not the best thing to do, to give Amazon all that data about your customers; that is me being cynical, having worked with Amazon for 11 years.

{audio:0:36:09} For me, as a consumer, it would be weird if I saw an advertisement for a financial product on Amazon, but maybe that just shows you the quality of the data they have?

{audio:0:36:26} They are looking at all the ways of selling ad space. Certainly, what you can do, bearing in mind you are using the DSP, is advertise on the CNN website, have banners on there and then drive that said person to your financial services website. You wouldn’t necessarily know that it was an Amazon ad, but you are just using the inventory and the data from the DSP system to do it. That could work, although there’s a famous saying, you are more likely to click on a banner ad than complete Navy Seal training. It’s an awareness piece, really, as you have to see the brand so many times before you engage with it.

{audio:0:37:13} Is there any reason why those CPMs on the DSP, at £2.30 or £2.50 today, why that can’t get to £20, such as it is on Facebook, over the next five or six years?

{audio:0:37:30} I think it’s going to go that way. There are some organizations, such as Ocado and Walmart – Walmart is making a decent fist of it, in the States; it’s growing its market share and ecommerce faster than Amazon, currently – who are two of the few big beasts that can do that. Google are teaming up with the likes of Carrefour; can they start restricting what Amazon is doing? Basically, I’m old enough to remember various social networks which were supposed to have taken over the world and then fell by the wayside.

{audio:0:38:22} Amazon’s Achilles heel is probably the service to brands, at the moment. It is failing a lot of brands and sellers, because it is scaling so fast and it hasn’t got the infrastructure in place. Always look after the consumer, but brands sometimes fall by the wayside. It seems to be moving more and more hands off, so can they keep that level of customer service that Facebook and Google managers are particularly good at? Their organization is scaling so fast, can it keep doing that effectively, as well as looking after the brands?

{audio:0:39:11} What do brands need that they are not getting, today, from Amazon?

{audio:0:39:14} I think the human touchpoints; being able to solve problems and issues internally. I’m glad about, to be quite frank, because my agency wouldn’t exist otherwise.

{audio:0:39:33} I think that’s part of Amazon’s strategy, going back to DSPs; having agencies, such as mine, as third-party brokers, for their advertising. That is one tactic that they are using at the moment. They need to remember that the brands pay the bills on the advertising side of things, so how can they keep them happy? I think that’s going to be the challenge when they are scaling, over time.

{audio:0:40:09} Can we go back to the question as to why we wouldn’t see £20 CPMs? As you said, if Walmart or Ocado get their act together, will the other grocers have some kind of DSP or great attribution of ad spend? That could be a risk, potentially?

{audio:0:40:33} It would be interesting to see what eBay does because, obviously, they are rolling out their pay per click. There are other organizations, such as Shopify, who are doing some quite interesting tie ups with Facebook and the like. Does Shopify open up its own advertising in conjunction with its platform and Google? To me, Etsy is one of my favorite marketplaces, because it has got the whole community feel to it and it has got a distinct proposition.

{audio:0:41:14} If I’m a brand – let’s say Mondelēz, for example – how do I look at Amazon as a channel? It is obviously versus Walmart, but when I allocate all my spend – I’ve got some stores, plus promotional spend, plus some digital spend – where does Amazon take market share?

{audio:0:41:35} The likes of Mondelēz are probably very focused on bricks and clicks. By that, I mean for Walmart, Tesco and the like, there’s an ad system called Citrus which powers the advertising on Ocado as well as the likes of Sainsbury’s and Kroger. Could that be a system that starts hoovering up ad dollars? Possibly.

{audio:0:42:02} The likes of Mondelēz are very involved with Amazon, to a certain extent, but I think they are more focused on the supermarkets, for now. But certainly moving towards the likes of Amazon in a much bigger play. I think that’s what we’re seeing with the bigger brands. There is definitely a pivot.

{audio:0:42:31} To less in-store promotion?

{audio:0:42:34} Yes. Less in-store promotion; more online. People are just moving that way. Mondelēz isn’t a customer of mine, so I can’t speak for them, but that is what I am seeing with lots of similar, bigger brands. The whole look, feel and content is changing. Okay, we’re doing content on a branded site, but also working with Amazon, eBay, and looking at all of the big five supermarkets in the UK, plus Walmart, and we’re aiming to have that consistent consumer journey, when people are looking at products online.

Amazon Advertising

Founder and Managing Director at Marketplace AMP, Amazon Advertising Agency

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Matt Anderson

Founder and Managing Director at Marketplace AMP, Amazon Advertising Agency

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Amazon Advertising (July 12, 2021)

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