To start, it would be great to understand how the transaction with the housing firm went with Knights. How did that happen? What was the process and the engagement with David like?

We completed the sale in January 2020. Alongside Knights, I transitioned my team into the Knights business, which was a highly efficient process. I referred to them lightheartedly as the army of Knights because they came in and addressed everything, including paper-related tasks. Certain support team members didn't transition with the business due to Knights' lean operations. I worked through this process with support from Knights. The transition to Knights' offices took place a month later and was highly efficient and supportive at various levels. The success with my team was quite high, although we did lose some people. Even now, nearly five years later, a reasonably strong cohort of the team remains there.

Yes, and I guess this is an important point we're trying to figure out. Acquisition integrations are a really difficult process. The way Knights do it is with one team, one way of doing things, and one brand, really focusing on working capital. Based on what we know so far, it seems to take a bit of autonomy away.

I believe there were weaknesses in how they handled us. They slightly fragmented our team by splitting us across two sites, in Manchester and Winslow. I found that unhelpful. This is not a personal gripe, as I always intended to move on, but I wasn't made head of [housing]. They don't have heads of departments, and I think I could have mitigated some of the losses we experienced.

It's interesting because, from the outside, we're trying to figure out if Shulmans was just a one-off situation or an outlier. Is that risk always present?

I was heavily involved in recruitment and worked closely with Tim Bates, their recruitment director. He's very transparent about this. The attempt to recruit, especially for organic growth, is strongly aligned with values and the model within Knights. However, it's not suitable for everyone, and there's always a risk and attrition rate with acquisitions because it can be brutal.