{audio:0:00:00} Could you run through your experience in the music industry?

{audio:0:00:08} I’ve always wanted to work in the music industry, from the age of about 16. I did go to university, in Germany, for a fairly new line of studies, called music business, at Popakademie. At the time when they created a new area of studies, the music industry was in freefall, but I decided to do it anyway. During my studies, we had to do lots of internships, so I got to see different sides. I undertook internships with digital distributors and labels and, when it came to my Bachelor thesis, I did an Erasmus year in Sweden, where Spotify was just opening up for business.

{audio:0:01:11} I found that really interesting and I decided to write my thesis about Spotify and subscription models for music. Back then, the person that I reported to for my thesis, told me, “That’s too new; you can’t write about that. There is no literature, no nothing.” I did it anyway. That was interesting, because no one else in Germany or the world, had heard of them and I thought it was a really interesting business model.

{audio:0:01:42} I returned to Germany and I did a little bit of freelance work for a conference and then the first streaming service in Germany, called Simfy, which was a copycat of Spotify. They had a license for German content. I joined them as their fourth or fifth employee. I went into the streaming space pretty early on, which was in 2010. That was really the groundworks of explaining what it was to artists and labels and seeing what kind of partnerships companies like this would seek. I was asked, by Spotify, to join them for their German team, which they launched in 2012, which I did as a representative; back then, it was called neighbor relations. It was mainly the role of dealing with artists and labels, setting up partnerships, explaining the model.

{audio:0:02:49} That, obviously, went well and Spotify is now the biggest streaming service in Germany. I spent seven years there, building up my own department. Over time, the role changed significantly, from more missionary work to setting up marketing ideas and marketing partnerships. I left Spotify in 2018, because I felt as if the mission had been accomplished and the music industry in Germany was like, we get it; now we can do our own thing. I also really wanted to start my own business, at the time.

{audio:0:03:29} I took a sabbatical and really thought about what could be useful for the music industry, as a next step. What always struck me, during my time at Spotify, was people who are decision makers for marketing, for music products or music entertainment brands, they still market their product as it was when there was no subscription model, but a sales model. They would say, “Here’s our new CD; buy it”, then bam, bam, bam for three weeks and then they would let it go.

{audio:0:04:06} That was more of the mindset and I wanted to change with Ease Agency when I joined it, which my partner had already built up, over eight years. They had great individuals and experts working in social media and online marketing, paid marketing. We had all the foundations of operational work, but what I wanted to do, was build up a strategy for artists who, not only work on recorded music, but live and merchandise and all the other revenue streams that matter to artists these days. Especially from a data perspective, we wanted to centralize everything for management, in order to be more effective with our marketing tools.

{audio:0:04:51} When we came together and really built this new company, or rebuilt the existing Ease Agency company, it was more like being on the side of artists and management and being able to make the most of possibilities that are out there; especially with streaming, but other platforms too. To guide them through what they should do, where they should invest, what partnerships to choose and also being able to carry them out with campaigns and social media expertise.

{audio:0:05:25} I didn’t want to be a consultant; I wanted to be able to actually do the work in this company, as well. That’s why we came together with Ease Agency and I’ve been here for a year now.

{audio:0:05:37} Can we just take it back to the old world. You mentioned that the marketing was more of a sales model. Who are the stakeholders involved in a typical marketing campaign, in that old world?

{audio:0:05:49} It’s important to understand that recorded music is only one revenue stream for an artist. It used to be the most important one. These days, with most of the artists we work with, it’s live, but it depends on the genre, obviously. Back then, you would sign with a label and you would hand over your recording and they would do all the marketing work for you. You would sign a contract that gives you between 5% and 25% of the revenue, depending on how good your negotiating power is. Then they would market it for you, distribute it for you; they would produce the product. They would do everything PR wise.

{audio:0:06:36} Back then, the labels were also gatekeepers, in terms of TV and radio contacts. They would decide who would get to play on MTV, who would get a certain TV show. There was really no way around this system, back then.

{audio:0:07:00} So the label was actually dictating the whole marketing campaign, the distribution; really just a pure gatekeeper to the whole industry?

{audio:0:07:08} Yes, I would say so. If you had a standard artist and you weren’t the biggest newcomer and you didn’t have a clue, you could still give your opinion and say, “I rather like this color,” and those sort of things. But everything would be put up for you and you would sign off. Basically, you just had to show up for promotional dates and everything would flow from there. Back then, it was before my time too; I only know it from stories. It seemed to be a gold rush, so no one really cared if they made five million or six million, because it was enough for everyone. Nobody really looked at how the agreements worked in detail, or if they would work in 10 years’ time, because there was just enough for everyone to thrive.

{audio:0:08:02} I think that’s probably when a whole bunch of mistakes were made, in terms of agreements that were made in 1993, but are still valid today and they don’t really apply to how the industry works nowadays.

{audio:0:08:19} Can we take the example of Rammstein? As Ease Agency, what channels did you use, to market their new album?

{audio:0:08:29} With Rammstein, it’s a very special case, I would say, because they’ve been around for a very long time. Their last record was out 10 years ago. The leap from a 2010 record to a 2019 one, was huge, because they did tour, but they didn’t release any new records. What was most important to us was that we keep the brand of Rammstein and the visual identity that is very strong and that they have established over the years, but make it modern at the same time and make the most of all the opportunities that there are right now.

{audio:0:09:12} We partnered with the label, which is Universal, but we carried out most of the digital strategy which was, obviously, the entire tool box of visual marketing, such as YouTube ads, Instagram ads, Facebook ads, newsletters. Also important for them is that they have a huge fanbase and we think we did a great job at retargeting people who went to the tour and who bought merchandise, which is also a big stream for them.

{audio:0:09:46} Then, important for us, was to have some sort of physical element, as well, because the physical sales for Rammstein are still huge. That’s not the case for every band but, for them, it is. They sold more than half a million copies, which is extremely rare, these days. We wanted to have something on point of sale, which is MediaMarkt in Germany, or HMV in the UK, where people could come and buy the physical product, to have something that is fun for them. We created a 13-meter-long match, because the match is the cover of the record. There is no photo of the band; it’s just a match. The album is called Rammstein and the visual identity is the match. We rented a truck that went from one town or city to another, and people could follow it over a GPS and could see where the truck was going. They could go there, obviously buy the record, but also take selfies with it, so we would have the ability to distribute into the online world, as well.

{audio:0:11:09} We would have amazing footage of that; we’d have some new pieces of content marketing of where the truck was going and what people were doing with it. That was a nice offline touch to it, I would say. What the label usually does, in these cases, is put big billboards across Germany. Outside Germany, we only did a digital spend. We like to combine everything from a brand perspective and they just announced their tour in the US, which is pretty exciting, because they haven’t been there for many, many years. Together with the tour marketing campaign, we branded a zeppelin, which is quite unusual. Obviously, a zeppelin is a very German thing. Think of Hindenburg and think of the 1920s, 1930s. We branded a zeppelin that flew across LA and some other cities, for four days, to promote the shows. We always like to have a physical element that demonstrates how big the band is and how massively they like to see themselves, or to create a distance, in a way, and a mystery among the band. They are not really the ones that come to hug fans after the concert. They are more like, this is Rammstein and you’re here, which is part of the brand, so that’s important when we carry out any marketing strategy, as well.

{audio:0:12:50} Would you say that the offline is still very important today, in driving branding for artists?

{audio:0:12:59} Obviously, with Rammstein, we were in the luxury position that we had a lot of budget to work with; that’s not usually the case. Let’s say you are more of a medium-sized band or a newcomer, you want to have the budget planned out as effectively as possible. In that situation, I don’t want to say that online marketing activities are more effective, but at least it’s more trackable. You can see that you spent X amount and this is what came out. This is, obviously, important for a lot of people who deal with tighter budgets. However, I think the offline experience, in concerts or festivals, is something that most bands don’t really leverage on. Let’s say a band had 20,000 people come to an arena and, somehow, interact with the brand, they would be very lucky and they would make the most of it. That’s not what happens at concerts and festivals these days. They come in and they go and you don’t even know who these people are.
{audio:0:14:13} I think that’s something where we want to really step up the game, with live interactions and also to gather data about the people who come.

{audio:0:14:26} Can you walk us through your thought process. Let’s say, you win the Rammstein budget and, like you said, you have a very mysterious brand and identity, in Rammstein. How do you curate and maintain that mystery and aura around the brand?

{audio:0:14:47} When we have a new client, we always work on the management and artist’s side. Our client is always management and client. We see what’s happening and what impacts are developing, over the next couple of years. That could be a record release, a tour, a ticket announcement, a new line of merchandise; anything that is important to them. Then we look at what are the channels or the goals that we want to tap into for this? What fits the band? Particularly with social media channels, it always depends on how much the band actually wants to do themselves. If they don’t want to do an Instagram story every day, that’s not a tool that I can put them onto, because I know it’s not going to happen.

{audio:0:15:40} What we do first, usually, is a workshop with people. Sometimes the artist is involved, sometimes not. We try to figure out how much time, especially personal time, we can get from the band. With Rammstein, it was none. They didn’t do any sort of promotion. With other bands, we can do two hours a week or we can do something. We try to lay out what the resources are, how much they want to give out from their private lives, for example, because they are celebrities, as well, in most cases. What sort of tone of voice they want to use when speaking with their fans and that’s important to lay out as a strategy framework. Then we usually come up with ideas of how to fill these channels that we have identified, with goals for everyone to achieve.

{audio:0:16:37} Obviously, this year in the music industry, everyone was about TikTok and everyone was about short form entertaining video performances. It was about dancing and challenges and that didn’t fit the Rammstein brand at all. We decided to forgo it because, firstly, I couldn’t see it and I wouldn’t even be comfortable pitching it. Secondly, it doesn’t fit the brand and it doesn’t help them to achieve their goals, either. We would rather come up with ideas that are along the lines of creating riddles and having planned leaks of certain things.

{audio:0:17:20} What we did for Lindemann, who is the singer in Rammstein, he also released an album and we showed a video of a song, just one time. We did a website where we could stream the video, but it was shown for three minutes and then it was gone. One reason was because it was very brutal and it would be censored and taken off. Obviously, the fanbase, you can rely on them to find their ways and with all the hype existing, you know that they will find a way to make it available, but it’s no longer us who will be hosting the video or be responsible for it. People who wanted to see it could still see it. I think, especially in online streaming marketing, it’s still important to create these moments where things are rare, where you have to be at a certain place, at a certain time, to see things. That’s what people find exciting. If everything is available, to everyone, the whole time, they can’t really use that to build their own personality brands, so we always try to think of things as to why people would be interested, in their own lives, to see the video of Lindemann at a specific time, on Halloween night.

{audio:0:18:38} I think that’s the way we approach it and not just to think about the artist, but also, what are the fan personas? What is important to them? Why would they share a certain piece of content and why not? Then we bring it all together.

{audio:0:18:57} Would you almost map out the fan persona and the band persona and then match them and see what marketing plan you could put around that?

{audio:0:19:04} Yes, exactly. We usually have two or three different personas for a band or a brand. Then we decide how we want to approach them and what the best channel for them is. For a newcomer band that we work with, there is a channel where they interact with rock friends, who read Rolling Stone, who like guitar music, who like indie music that is handmade. It’s more the type of channel where they talk about how they produce their music and which songs they like.

{audio:0:19:45} Whereas on Instagram, they have this fanbase of younger girls, who think they are cute and they have a very different sort of voice. It depends on which channels are talking to who and if you need paid marketing to reach them; sometimes you don’t and you just need a really good idea. Then we lay out the strategy across those channels.

{audio:0:20:06} So you have different personas for different channels, for the same band and that will determine your marketing plan, on that medium?

{audio:0:20:16} You mentioned how you side with artist and the manager and seeing as how digital marketing agencies, like Ease Agency, are now taking budget from the record labels, how do you deal with that tension between the record label, the artist and the manager?

{audio:0:20:43} You mentioned tension and it’s definitely something that we work with. I think it depends on the size of the artist and the negotiation power that they have. But it also depends on which type of licensing contract they have in place, with the label. What is very common right now, especially in Germany, but elsewhere too, is what they call a distribution deal. That would mean the label is giving you all the means of the distribution network, both physical and digitally and they probably give you an advance for marketing. But they don’t give you their resources, in terms of their own marketing teams, their product managers and so on.

{audio:0:21:34} This is something that people seek out a lot and we usually come into play when it’s time to plan out the marketing budget. That’s something that is very common and there are a lot of what are called aggregators, such as Believe, recordJet and others, who work in that sort of business model. They take a much lower revenue share of what comes in for the artist, but they also have a much smaller headcount. That is a situation and a set up where we have a very easy time because we can complement their set up and we can run the entire campaign or they can give us bits.

{audio:0:22:23} When they sign to a major label, it’s obviously a bit more difficult, because they have their headcount and their overheads, which they have to tie into the projects that they choose. Sometimes, we only work together, in terms of we make sense of the social media strategy, which is not something that the label usually does as they only focus on marketing the record. They are not interested in promoting a concert. To have someone on the label side, from the label perspective, running the accounts in a perfect manner, that is something that they also like. I think there is a certain line where they say, “This is great and we want you as part of this, as a resource and as someone who can help management putting all the pieces together.” Then, on the other side of the spectrum is, “They’re taking our core work and making it agency work; where does it leave us?” I think that’s something we deal with every day.

{audio:0:23:30} How do you see the labels reacting to this change in the industry?

{audio:0:23:39} I think there is a huge turning point, right now. Some labels have already chosen to be in a position where they act more like a bank, because they will give you an advance fee on what they think you are going to stream or sell. That’s the money that is used to get the campaigns going, really. Some artists can fund it themselves, but it’s rare. There are several labels and distributors who have stepped into this ‘artist’s services’ type of deals. They will say, “You can come to us, we will distribute it for you and then we have some other services, next to it, that you can choose to do, or you can do them yourself.” They are moving into that direction but, obviously, it’s a very different business model for them. They see that artists, if they have a good setup themselves, they can achieve so much now, without having to go through a major.

{audio:0:24:47} I don’t know whether they like it or not; probably not, but they are adjusting to the situation. It’s something that they make do with.

{audio:0:24:57} From the artist’s point of view, they can obviously capture a larger revenue share and use someone like Ease Agency or a pure digital agency, and market themselves more online than they would, historically?

{audio:0:25:11} Yes. With a higher share of the revenue comes a lot more responsibility on the artist and management side. When we talk about the 90s, you would just hand in your record and you’re done. Nowadays it’s about finding someone who does your artwork; it’s about managing freelancers and finding someone who does your video shoot. It’s a lot of project management to do all these little bits and pieces. It asks a lot more from the management party, compared to 20 years ago, when they would probably just do the licensing agreement and check if the artist was ready to do an interview.

{audio:0:26:00} That’s changing a lot and that’s where we think we can be a great resource for managers who don’t have the time and the knowledge. Probably, the band members are a bit older and they don’t really know how to navigate this space. This is where we think we can help. Because the revenue is now coming from so many different ends, it’s very important to have a cohesive strategy and branding for your entire brand. I’ve seen a lot of cases where there was great campaign for a record, but then the tour marketing that was right after it, was very different, looked like shit and didn’t tie back to the brand at all.

{audio:0:26:55} In my opinion, the time where the record should be streamed the most is when you are on tour. That’s when people are excited and they want to hear it afterwards; they’ve found a particular new song that they like. For me, the whole year is an ‘always on’ campaign. I say, to a lot of my clients, back then, you marketed your records like an iPhone so you build a lot of suspense, all the new features, the teasers and then it came out to the market and that’s your biggest selling day.

{audio:0:27:30} Nowadays, I want them to think it’s more like a utility. People can listen to unique, new music every day. For example, the Coca-Cola brand, they always have the same product, they didn’t change it. However, they still market it every day, because every day could be a Coca-Cola buying day for everyone. I want them to think that every day is an opportunity for people to not buy your record, but to stream your record and you have more market share for that day, which is the ultimate goal, in terms of streaming revenue.

{audio:0:28:06} We don’t really like to do an album campaign, three weeks and then let go. We try to make it work the whole year round and bring attention and awareness try and pull people back in, when usually, the former label marketing department would already be on their next artist.

{audio:0:28:28} What’s the biggest challenge in that ‘always on’ marketing campaign?

{audio:0:28:35} For me, it’s changing the mindset or elevating the mindset of the artist that it is always on. They were used to the model where they did their record, they do their tour and then they do nothing for three years; that’s a great life to have. Now it’s a lot more work because we have to think, why could it be interesting to listen to a record that was released three years ago and what makes it important for January 2020 and why would you listen to it now? It often deals with the zeitgeist movement, even as little as participating in a meme, with those type of things being relevant and tying back to all of your catalogue. I think that’s the most important, and also difficult, thing for us to come up with something new, almost every week.

{audio:0:29:36} It’s challenging. If you have a lot of artists and campaigns running, something that doesn’t work for one, might work for another. Being in an agency is easier, because we have so many different influences and work with so many different artists. We don’t have to just think about one brand and stick to it.

{audio:0:29:58} How do you deal with the challenge of changing the mindset of these big personalities, which are typically music artists?

{audio:0:30:07} It’s a lot of talking. What we haven’t done so far, because we are building up this company, is co-acquisition. I haven’t rung up people to say, “Hey, I think you need this.” The people who approach us have come a long way and say, I think we need this and we convince them that that is the right path to follow. However, don’t get me wrong, but a lot of artists are lazy in that respect. They don’t want to do all the engaging little pieces. What we try to do is, make a plan for the next quarter and then pick a day where we record everything that we need for the next quarter and then use it when the time comes. This makes it easier to have everything in place; you don’t have to rely on their schedules or holiday plans.

{audio:0:31:06} I also understand that an artist, who is also a celebrity and gives out a lot of their personality to people, they don’t always want to be like this all year round. They want to create a space where they can just be themselves; they can be a private person. We have to be sensitive towards that. We need to deal with when they are willing to participate and, maybe, we can come up with ideas that work without the artist. We do a lot of lyric videos and other things where we don’t need them interacting, but it’s still valuable for fans.

{audio:0:31:54} What was the biggest challenge, specifically, on that point, in marketing Rammstein?

{audio:0:32:00} The band wasn’t available to us, at all, as I said. They were focusing 100% on recording the album and then preparing for the tour. There was no time when we could do any sort of promotion. Obviously, having this cover which is just a match, that’s a limitation in itself. We had one photo shoot that we could work with where it was a more satirical way of looking at the band. They’re always like fire, brutal and dark. They did one photo shoot where they all held a puppy and we were looking at it saying, this is gold; we have to do something with this.

{audio:0:32:49} I think the biggest challenge was when we announced the European tour, which was last year. We produced a very regional campaign, across Europe, that used these puppy images, but we created one ad for every city that was playing with things that you would think about in relation to that city; maybe prejudices that you had about people from that city, such as a little play on words and how Rammstein would come in. I can send you some examples later, but it was a very fun, entertaining and pretty risky thing to do with them as it was not on brand. In fact, it was particularly off brand. Because they had been around for so long, we thought that maybe we could spin this, for once.

{audio:0:33:44} Some of them liked it and some of them hated it; that’s what sometimes happens. Having to take that risk, that was probably the hardest challenge, I would say.

{audio:0:33:55} What was the thought process behind the picture with the puppies?

{audio:0:34:01} I don’t even know if it was planned. They have a photographer that they like to work with, who also goes on tour. I think he had this idea and, in a good moment, he just asked them to do it and we didn’t even know if those photos would see the light of day. They came to us, and we really wanted to work with them and they allowed it. You sometimes don’t know what sort of content type will land on your desk and then you have to make your decision.

{audio:0:34:40} Given that the image was so off brand, what was your thinking behind using it?

{audio:0:34:50} The trailer that is now advertising the US tour is exactly what you would think of when you think of Rammstein. All the fire, loud music, a lot of riffs; we thought that would be great for the US market and it worked fantastically.

{audio:0:35:13} The thinking behind it was that the tour was going to sell out on day one. We knew that anyway. This ad was more around, what can we do, because we still need to tell people that there is a concert in Paris on this date. We know it’s going to be sold out, so why can’t we just have fun with it. It’s not going to be a performance ad but it’s saying, we aren’t going to take ourselves so seriously, for a moment, and then we go back to, you come to this show and you see massive fireworks. It was just a blink of an eye, in a way. It was about how we can make tour marketing more fun and less about the performance, which is obviously a luxury situation, because that doesn’t happen very often.

{audio:0:36:03} Back to the point you made earlier, relating to the fact that exclusivity is becoming on trend now, due to the fact that there is access to people, their content and their profile and what they are up to, day to day. How do you think, more broadly, about marketing online and what techniques you think are particularly interesting, given the amount of access and content out there?

{audio:0:36:27} The one area that we like to think about is, how can we make greater space for the diehard fans. Facebook is now turning their strategy more towards Facebook group interactions. When you look at their marketing strategy, it’s less about, I’m posting my breakfast or pictures of my kids, but more towards very specific groups, where they can interact. We are also seeing a lot more engagement in those.

{audio:0:37:05} For some of the bands we work with, it’s about creating that space. It could be a Facebook group, it could be a Telegram group, it could be a forum. But we need to find a space for them to interact and to have the opportunity to be very close, share very exclusive content, like a shout out. What you can make out of this is a business model. There are new platforms out there, like Patreon, but there was other crowdfunding, as well. This is taking another turn, I would say, because people are very interested in funding their favorite bands and we see a lot of action happening there. But obviously, it needs to be something a little more creative than just putting an album out. That’s something that we think is going to be lot bigger next year and where we have put a lot of resources, to think about things that people would love to crowdfund, in order to get some exclusive access.

{audio:0:38:07} With Instagram becoming such a huge channel for everyone, we can also think about how we can make use of face filters, camera effects, all the new features that go live every day. How can we turn them into music promotion tools? Face filters, for example, are pretty expensive to develop, because it takes programming. But if you can make the music play in the background of a face filter that is very fun to use, you can have a lot of reach and you don’t have to pay for that. That is something that we have used in a couple of campaigns. Whenever there is a new thing coming out, on any platform, what we like to do and propose to a client is, this is something new and we think we can work in this way, or let’s try it out that way. We can then get some first-hand data to see if that actually makes sense. Not just using Instagram by posting a picture of me in the studio, but actually tie it back to, by the way, this is all the music we created this month, listen to it on Spotify. Actually, come back with a call to action, anytime you do something, and not just post a picture because you have to post a picture.

{audio:0:39:35} It’s creating a more cohesive experience for the listener?

{audio:0:39:41} You mentioned how you think Patreon is going to be pretty big next year. Do you see that the industry is moving towards more niche verticals, with diehard fans? Potentially, even looking for your fans to fund you in a certain way, especially for the newcomer?

{audio:0:39:56} Yes. I think, with streaming and less money coming through via the old school ways, such as buying CDs and vinyls, there is a pressure point relating to what other business models make sense for creatives and creators. One thing that we are seeing is podcasts as a big trend. However, not every artist wants to talk about a certain topic every week. It ties back to the fact that they don’t always want to interact all the time.

{audio:0:40:34} The other thing is, if you don’t have a label and you’ve probably decided not to have one, for good reasons or because it’s just not your thing, how can you still make a living and fund your marketing campaign? That is something that Patreon and other crowdfunding pages are great at. We’ve been thinking about a very simple idea, of giving something digital but exclusive, a lock screen for your phone, with a new one coming out every month, for everyone who funds on Patreon. Very simple, but people love it because it’s only available to them. You get the jpeg or the download of it and you can show off that you are a diehard fan. That’s something that is very easy to do, but many people haven’t leveraged these channels, yet. When it comes to YouTube and monetization and claiming your music and videos, a lot of those things are untouched. When we start with a new client, we usually look at their status on the different platforms; is there revenue that we can look at together, where that may be something that they have been missing out on, and can maybe even finance working with us and so it’s cost-effective for everyone.

{audio:0:42:11} What is your view on the artist’s opinion around new online business models. Given Spotify’s claims of wanting one million artists to have a professional life from music, what is the artist’s view of those streaming services and potential new business models?

{audio:0:42:36} I think it’s very dependent on who you ask. If you are talking to someone who sold a lot of CDs in 90s and is now seeing a decline, they won’t be happy. There is a huge discussion, right now, in Germany, related to the distribution of streaming revenue and whether it should change from the pro-rata model to the user-centric model. That is coming from an era and a type of artist that has been around for a very long time. They make good money but they can still see that their market share is becoming smaller and smaller.

{audio:0:43:24} Then there are artists, especially in the urban space, who put out a song, they get 30 million streams and they become a millionaire overnight. That’s the other side of the spectrum. It very much depends on who you talk to and what type of revenue they are used to and with what means they are trying to achieve it. I worked there for seven years, so I don’t want to defend it, but I think it’s democratizing a lot, but that doesn’t mean that it’s good for everyone. Those who are lacking attention, awareness, time – I’m specifically not talking about money – I think they would need to look into, if the fanbase is there and they can go on tour and they sell a certain amount of CDs as well, what else is there that people might be interested in that they are actually paying for, as opposed to subscribe to, as a part of those 30 million songs that Spotify has to offer.

{audio:0:44:41} It’s very difficult to stand out with that much music available. I see the release of a record more as a means of the standard product that will help you. You, obviously, create your musical brand and those are the songs that are being played live, but the revenue streams are probably coming from elsewhere, building up from the musical brand. There’s a lot of artists who hate that picture, because music is the core of what they do, of their creativity. They feel as if that core work is being less respected and I can totally understand where that is coming from. But looking at Napster, looking filesharing, there was no going back to the old model. I always say to clients, this is the world we live in now and let’s make the most of it. Let’s try to get as much market share as we can. Let’s try to get awareness and attention, but not acting as if you are annoyed at what this is and I’m angry at everyone. Let’s try to make this work for the artist that is there and their abilities and what else they might look into, to have the same sort of living standard as they had before, which is mostly what they are concerned about.

{audio:0:46:13} Do you think an artist cares much about the new services that Spotify is moving into, in terms of ID management, promotion tools, all these extra services that they seem to be offering the artists?

{audio:0:46:25} I think it depends on whether they see it as being used for themselves. The promotional services that are being tested right now, are more for labels to pay for the ability to reach certain people on platforms. What I think is going to happen is, Spotify is going to offer targeted ads or an option to mail out to everyone who has been listening to you and they’re going to make that a business model. Very similar to what Facebook does. That’s something that they could really thrive on, because they have lots of very accurate data. If I were to spend $5 on Facebook, I would certainly consider whether I would rather spend that on sending a mail our or a pop-up to someone who listens on Spotify. But I think it’s just another way of creating a new revenue for Spotify than it is for artists to see an opportunity for them.

{audio:0:47:39} I also think, especially if you are not in the US, and if you are an artist around the world, with a very globalized music scene that we have now, it’s very difficult to reach that point where you can go into playlists or streaming set ups that are out of your territory. It seems easy, because it’s all globalized, but then, at the same time, it’s not. I think that’s where people are going to be struggling. I try to encourage them with the fact that the dependency is there, but there’s a lot less dependency than there was in the 90s, when there was only one person at MTV who could make a decision. You had to know that person and go for a drink with them, otherwise it wouldn’t be happening.

{audio:0:48:35} Those days are over, thankfully, but it also puts a lot more pressure on you being on your own path and you have to be responsible and put the work and resources in. Again, it’s the mindset I was talking about, which I think is changing.

{audio:0:48:57} Do you think Spotify could become more of a label?

{audio:0:49:04} What I see, from the moves they’ve been making over the last year, I don’t think so. It’s very interesting to compare their music industry to their podcast strategy, which is where they are doing their own productions, their own exclusives. Basically, if podcasts had labels, they would already be a label. That’s because podcasts are just rising and it’s a new form of content and it’s not set out as clearly as music catalogs.

{audio:0:49:41} For new music, it could possibly work, if they said, we invest in you as an artist. But it can never reach that level that can really turn the market. They Taylor Swifts, the Kanye Wests are tied up in their contracts and aren’t going anywhere. If major labels control the majority of the market and they have a stake in Spotify too, so you can’t really say, you’re all gone; this is our market now. The agreements are in place for the next 10, 20 years, in some cases. It’s very hard to turn a market around, even if they wanted to, especially as the people who would not like to see this happening, the labels, are stake and shareholders and partners that you need.

{audio:0:50:36} It’s a very political situation and I can’t really see it happening. I think they’re going to leverage everything they have in the podcast sphere, because it’s a business that they can scale easily as there are new things every day. With music, I don’t think so.

{audio:0:50:55} Marie, I think that’s a good place to end. Thank you very much for your time today.

Spotify: Marketing Music Artists Online

Comparison of marketing techniques pre and post-streaming world

The importance of offline channels to complement digital marketing

How to think about branding across different channels and building user personas

Spotify: Marketing Music Artists Online

Former Head of Artist & Label Marketing Central Europe at Spotify

inpractise.com/articles/spot-digital-marketing

Why is this interview interesting?

Executive Bio

Marie-Luise Heimer

Former Head of Artist & Label Marketing Central Europe at Spotify

Interview Transcript

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Spotify: Marketing Music Artists Online(January 28, 2020)

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