{audio:0:00:00} Christine, how do you think Covid will impact European demand for travel, for both the leisure and the business traveler?

{audio:0:00:12} I think, already, the impact has been very important, if not quite challenging, for all the players. All the forecasts today are showing that it will not end soon and the recovery will be very slow. You’ve seen, in the news, that for most of the European airlines, not only is the capacity of some of them down to zero, but they are also starting some plans to cut jobs. This means that they think it will be a middle-term impact that will be quite significant. Remember, just before the crisis, we were talking about pilot shortages for the industry. Now airlines are cutting jobs and laying off crews, including pilots. It’s a big change in the way the industry is looking at, not only what is going on now, but what the industry will look like in the next years. It will take years for the industry to recover to the same level we were in 2019.

{audio:0:01:30} Do you expect the regional travel in the UK and Europe, to bounce back quicker and then the long-haul to follow up years later?

{audio:0:01:41} Common sense would definitely make us say that domestic traffic will be starting sooner. This is what we can already see in China, where domestic traffic has started again. The reason is because, today, there is not the vision of a global recovery of the traffic, because when a flight is flying from one country to another, you need the agreement of the two markets to open the sky. It’s obvious to say that domestic traffic is easier to start again and the confidence will also be stronger, because people will stay in their country and they will not be concerned about what will happen if I get sick, in another country? What will be the support if there is a different language spoken? This lack of confidence will not be at the same level, domestically. You have perception confidence of the travelers and also, the logistics and the traffic rights which will be easier for domestic traffic.

{audio:0:02:58} It’s a logical step for a slow recovery but what is the challenge about that is that most of the airlines make much more money and their profits come from intercontinental or long-hauls flights, more than domestic flights, where the margins are very, very small.

{audio:0:03:20} How do you think those larger flag carriers will adapt their price, to manage that change in profitability between the long and short haul?

{audio:0:03:31} You’ve seen all the bail-out measures from governments and, for all of them, that will be quite vital support for the next months and years. You have also the other players in the industry that have been asking for support on the equity market. There are a lot of companies that are preparing themselves to manage the next year or two.

{audio:0:04:00} I think that when the traffic recovers, there will be a difficult choice to make. If you cannot afford to fly, because it’s too expensive, then the traffic will not start again. There will be a balance between margin but also, fueling the trust of the appetite for travelers, to fly again. That will be a challenge for all of them. They have very smart teams, with revenue management and pricing teams that will have to be as professional as they already are, to make sure that they can position the price at the right level.

{audio:0:04:43} How do you expect prices to change for short haul, in Europe?

{audio:0:04:56} I’m not sure that it will change. Players like Ryanair and Wizz Air will always be very strong players and very successful low-cost carriers, so the pressure on competition, on some routes, will definitely still be there. It will be more for routes that have a different competition profile, if you have less actors on the route. But I think the competition game will not change and, again, you need to make sure that people can afford to fly, so it’s just at the right balance. I’m sure that everybody is concerned about prices, but if the prices are too high, people will not fly, so it’s not a good solution for the airline industry.

{audio:0:05:44} What is your view on human nature and consumer behavior and when and if that can potentially change? People all say that they’re not going to travel or it’s going to change and it’s changed forever. Then humans, typically, go and do what they used to do. What’s your view on how that could change, post-Covid?

{audio:0:06:07} I think that the industry is trying to find a solution to restore confidence. It doesn’t mean that a solution will provide 100% trust, in that there will not be any risk, because it’s impossible to have that when travelling. But that was the case even before the pandemic. When you travel, you take a risk, because you’re not home, you’re in a different country. It’s not only about Covid; it’s about anything that could happen because you are out of your comfort zone. I think people that travel accept that they are taking a risk; it’s something that has always been the case.

{audio:0:06:54} Then it’s more about the process or the logistics. How do you get to the airport? How do you go through security? Maybe, making sure that all the players will put measures in place that give more trust and confidence. I think it will be very difficult, for instance, to keep social distancing during flights. I don’t see that as a sustainable measure. But if everybody is wearing masks, then maybe it’s even safer than social distancing. If the masks are the good ones, they will protect everybody, if everybody is wearing them. I think there are some potential solutions that will work and will restore confidence to travelers. They will have to accept – and they already do – that there is always a risk in travelling.

{audio:0:07:47} How did you see consumer behavior and demand change, post-2008, post-9/11 and other crises before?

{audio:0:07:58} These past crises were very different, because you had an event that was – 9/11 for example – that was a terrorist attack, it was very focused on one city and then it was a really huge crisis, but very limited in time. People were very sad and didn’t really understand what was going on and it was a huge drama, worldwide. But the traffic started again, quite quickly, because the people were looking at a very difficult event, but it was very isolated in one city. The recovery was quite quick.

{audio:0:08:51} Here we are now, facing a different situation, where everybody knows somebody who had to face the virus. It’s becoming very personal and that was not exactly the same situation with past crises. When people see that it is something that could really happen in your house, it’s very different.

{audio:0:09:17} So a much longer recovery with many more variables to consider?

{audio:0:09:20} Also, if you feel a little bit more comfortable travelling again, or maybe you are a bit concerned about if you come back home and you could have the virus with you and that impacts your family. When people think about it, it’s not always about themselves, but also the impact on their loved ones, on their parents, for instance. What could be the effect on your family and friends?

{audio:0:09:55} Christine, can we take a step back and talk about the industry structure. Over the last 20 years or so, how have you seen the airline industry evolve, specifically in Europe, between the LCCs, the flag carriers and the regional players coming up?

{audio:0:10:16} I think the structure has been moving in the same direction, which is consolidation. Why? Because of the pressure that you have. When you are an airline, the external factors are very challenging, not only on the competition side, but also on your cost structure. The market that has seen the fastest consolidation has been the US market, with quite a limited number of players that are also controlling, in a way, the regional carriers, to feed their own hubs. The regional carriers, in the US, are flying another brand of the flag carriers, so it’s a very consolidated structure market, compared to what you can see in other regions of the world.

{audio:0:11:12} Europe is the most fragmented market, maybe because it’s the oldest one, with flag carriers, low-cost carriers, regional carriers, that are competing with each other. I think that’s a crisis and it’s already what you see, with airlines going into administration. Not only in Europe, but in other regions of the world. They are asking for state support. So there will be consolidation and there will also be a rationalization. Looking at the example of Alitalia and the government saying that it will definitely be smaller. You will have an evolution of consolidation mixed with optimization of capacity, which is definitely supporting consolidation, because the rationalization of the capacity will not have to be done only by consolidation, but also by some players being a little bit smaller.

{audio:0:12:14} When Lufthansa announces that they are going to reduce their fleet by more than 100 aircraft, it means that they are already optimizing the capacities they have in the market.

{audio:0:12:25} Do you think those LCCs, Wizz, Ryanair, EasyJet, will take up some of these slots from these larger carriers who are reducing their fleet and capacity?

{audio:0:12:37} They will take up some slots of routes, if it makes sense for them, if there is a business case. Maybe, for some routes, they are already on the routes and they will have even more success. There are strong players, who are very successful and, financially, they can afford it. I think the game on European short-haul is definitely already showing that there is the story of being the low-cost carrier model and when you see some players, like Wizz Air, who are opening a base in Abu Dhabi, that’s an even bigger change for the industry.

{audio:0:13:28} What’s your view on the flag carriers and how their position in the market is going to evolve and why the government is still backing these companies, across Europe? Do you think this is going to change and the view and reaction towards the government backing these companies is going to change?

{audio:0:13:47} When you look at the structure of some bail-outs today, it’s very interesting. It’s very different in Europe, compared to the US, for obvious reasons to do with the governance of organizations. In the US, there are conditions for the support that has been given, by the government, to airlines. If you take an example in France, there are also some conditions that have been given from the French government, to Air France, including sustainability. That’s quite interesting, because it’s really on the agenda even more than it was because the crisis has been revealing that, for some groups of activists, without any flights, nature is taking a revenge.

{audio:0:14:42} I think that the support of governments is definitely putting the state, as potentially stronger shareholders, in the mix, if they were already shareholders, or at least a stakeholder, to look at the governance of the company and maybe push some agendas that were not such a focus in the past. I think it’s good, because most of the time, these agendas are more long term than short term.

{audio:0:15:11} But for all the situations we have seen so far, it’s implying more efficient financial structure of the company and stronger margins for the organizations. It’s not only efficiency from the financial perspective, but efficiency from an environmental perspective, as well. That will be good, I think. Not only for the organization but also, long term, for everybody.

{audio:0:15:47} Do you expect the LCCs to gain market share, over the flag carriers, globally, in both the US and Europe?

{audio:0:15:57} In the US, it’s a little bit different because the presidents of LCCs have different positioning. But in Europe, I think they are very strong already. Ryanair is the strongest European airline, as far as short haul is concerned. I think, yes, there is definitely an opportunity for them to be even stronger and take market share, on point to point, in Europe.

{audio:0:16:25} Flag carriers have always struggled with the domestic market and short-haul markets. It’s definitely difficult for the same organization, even if they are trying to have different airlines in the group, to make sure that, at a cost-competitive level, you can store a culture that that is all about cost and, in the same group, you have another organization that is more about product. It’s a difficult mix and you also need to be very careful when you have to explain what the culture of the company is. Complex messages are very difficult to explain so if it’s all about service and it’s all about product, it’s difficult to say that it’s all about cost. When you’re working with Wizz Air or Ryanair, the first KPI you look at it is cost per available seat kilometer, before anything else. You want to be competitive on that first measure and that’s an obsession for both organizations.

{audio:0:17:41} You’re saying that in Air France or the big flag carriers, it’s more about service, quality, product offering and serving the nation, really?

{audio:0:17:50} I think it’s the DNA of these organizations and it’s good, because there is definitely a market for this type of product. It’s very different from a Ryanair product. Nobody would expect Ryanair to work on service, like nobody would expect Wizz Air to work on service, but it’s a different market.

{audio:0:18:17} Can we take a step back to when you joined Flybe, in 2017, as CEO. Can you share some context around the position of the company and the role you stepped into?

{audio:0:18:51} I was based in the US when I got the call. I knew the company, because I was in charge of Air France KLM, when they were based in the UK, a number of years ago. I always had a great admiration for Flybe, because their business model was about connecting the regions in the UK and, you know better than I do, it’s very difficult to go from one region to another, because of the poor rail and road infrastructure. It was definitely serving a business model and a purpose that was obvious for all, not only customers, but also stakeholders.

{audio:0:19:38} I was definitely passionate about it and I joined in January 2017. My predecessor had already gone. He left before I arrived and I joined a team led by the chairman who became executive, to bridge the gap. I will say that the company was already in a challenging environment because the company was not profitable and was showing an evolution of the bottom line that needed to be improved. You join an organization and you know that you will have to improve its performance, but that’s fine because, in a way, since I started in the industry, that’s what I’ve done. The airline industry is always seeking to improve their margin.

{audio:0:20:34} When you work in organizations that have a history – because the low cost started with a clean sheet of paper and it didn’t have to work on efficiencies – they work on a business plan that was all about costs and infrastructure. They didn’t have any legacy to deal with, because everything was built, consistently, with the best practices of the industry, from the start.

{audio:0:21:01} The first year was about making sure we were able to speed up the business plan and to improve the margins. You can improve margins, in an airline, by doing quite a long list of things, but it’s about operational efficiency, it’s about productivity, it’s about renegotiation of the contracts. It’s about improving revenue; that’s always the most enjoyable thing, because revenue is about being the preferred option for the customer. We did a lot of work, with a great team and we realized, quite soon, that it was interesting, in parallel with developing the business plan, some partnership solution didn’t only mean M&A, but finding a partnership with our culture.

{audio:0:21:59} It was a very complex project. What you need to do, not only as chief executive, but as director of a company, making sure you explore all opportunities – internal, external, organic, non-organic – to see what the best future for the organization is. In a very challenging environment, that became even harder, as Brexit got closer and closer. In this type of environment, you need to make sure that the team understands where you want to go and create transparency with your team. That’s the most challenging part, when you are dealing with a crisis, is how do you keep the team together and also understanding what is going on. That’s the most challenging part of any situation like this one, compared to a gross situation, where you have more time and you also have more time to think, because you don’t have to react and develop short-term actions.

{audio:0:23:17} How did you approach fostering transparency during a crisis moment?

{audio:0:23:26} I think it’s about communication. The difficulty is, you cannot say everything because there are things that are confidential. When you are a public company, it’s even more critical. You can communicate on a number of subjects, which are subjects you can communicate on, in public. If you release information to your team, you have to release that to the market. It’s very difficult but, at the same time, you can only work if you can create trust with your teams. That’s not always something that you can do with everybody in the organization. In fact, you create trust with people you can connect with and when you work with a team of 2,500 employees, in different locations, trust is about connection, about what you can say, it’s about how people can see you, how you react. The best way to create trust is to meet people. You can meet a number of people, talk with them again and again and again, but when you have to manage a crisis in parallel, it’s very difficult, because you’re locked in an office, surrounded by advisors and it doesn’t leave you the time – even if you don’t sleep much – to speak with many people in the organization.

{audio:0:25:08} When thinking about communication then, firstly, how do you choose what to communicate? What are your priorities, in the crisis? What is the number one priority that you choose to communicate and then you can look at how and when and to who?

{audio:0:25:27} You need to rely on your team just to make sure you are aware of what is going on. You cannot be disconnected. So your team has to help you to understand what the misunderstandings are, what people are afraid of, what are the messages you need to clarify? You have to be honest, if you don’t know or you cannot tell them.  I think I would advise anybody not to limit communication and to communicate again and again. If you communicate something in the morning and it’s wrong, you have to communicate again, maybe in the evening, to say that people misunderstood what you communicated in the morning. It’s fine. When you go through a crisis, be in Covid or any other crisis, the structure that you put in place for communication in normal times, doesn’t work anymore. The time is different, because you have pressure on everything and what is true today might not be true tomorrow. What you know today, about this virus, could be very different tomorrow. The frameworks that may be very successful in normal times, don’t work anymore.

{audio:0:27:02} It’s different, it’s more dependent on what the feedback is from your team, dependent on what’s going on, on BBC News or Sky News in the morning and you have to adapt.

{audio:0:27:18} So the frequency of communication, typically, has to increase in a crisis?

{audio:0:27:22} You have to be agile in a crisis. You have to be agile, in general, but in a crisis, what people really expect is communication that is consistent about what is going on in their life, what is going on in the news. In a financial crisis, if you have something on Twitter, with a journalist thinking that they know something that nobody else knows, or a journalist on the news, saying something about your company or the industry, how do you react to that and how do you make sure that the information from the organization is definitely the best?

{audio:0:28:14} What is difficult for a public company compared to others is that you cannot release information, if it’s unknown by the market. For instance, if you have a leak in the press for something that is true, you are not supposed, most of the time, to confirm it, except if you do with financial analysts in the morning. You really have restrictions that relate to the governance structure of public companies. Any information has to be released first to the market. At the same time, you release information to the market, you can release information to your team and that’s what the challenge is.

{audio:0:29:02} What was the biggest operational challenge at Flybe?

{audio:0:29:08} I think the biggest operational challenge was the fact that the structure of the company was in 13 different bases. For every single day, anything could happen, in any base. Because of this infrastructure, it was a challenge every day. I think that I was always amazed by the amount of work by the center of operation, because it could be weather, it could be an aircraft that should stay in the hangar, it could be sickness. It could be anything.

{audio:0:29:51} Then we had some other operational challenges when, at some point, we had some pilot shortages, too. But I would say that, for me, the recognition of the fact that every single day was a challenge in itself, because of the complexity and the fact that we wanted to deliver the best service to all the regions, but with limited resources in all bases. That was the challenge, every day.

{audio:0:30:18} How did you go about renegotiating contracts or looking to reduce the cost base or that CASK?

{audio:0:30:26} It’s always the same in our industry. You need to go to the old cost structure and go, one by one, be it airports, leasing companies, aircraft or engine manufacturers and renegotiate contracts; every single contract. Again, you have teams that are at the forefront of this renegotiation. It’s not only the operational team, on the ground or the engineering department, but also in commercial and procurement.

{audio:0:31:04} You could be very successful, because a negotiation is always the same. It should be a balanced discussion; it should be win win. So if you ask for a renegotiation to a contract, what is in it for the other party and it’s not always easy to find something. Flybe had been in a difficult situation for quite a while, because the company already renegotiated a number of contracts, so you need to redefine ways to find solutions for all your contracts.

{audio:0:31:42} What were the biggest leadership lessons that you took away from running Flybe?

{audio:0:31:50} I think, when you go through a crisis like this one, you are, let’s say, more aware of who you are. But also aware of human nature. The most difficult leadership lesson for me was, if you are convinced that what you know is the right thing and you try to deliver it, at some point, you have to stop listening to critics. You have to build an armor, a shield, to make sure that you protect yourself. You don’t read Twitter anymore, you don’t read social media anymore, because you are convinced that you are doing the right thing. It’s for yourself, but also for your team, because it could really be very difficult, emotionally, for anybody. You can convince 80% of the people that you are working with, but there will always be people who don’t understand, don’t want to accept it or think that you are lying or hiding something or don’t want to understand the process you have to go through.

{audio:0:33:20} I think, from a leadership perspective, you have to make sure that you are building the strength to stop reading all the negative feedback, because you are just doing the right thing. That’s the lesson learned. You learn this lesson when you are managing small crises, but when the crisis is going on and on, for a number of months and you lose some emotional resilience, because you are not sleeping much, reading the critics is very difficult. You have to protect yourself.

{audio:0:34:00} How do you balance that humility and listening to others and taking ideas, versus the self-confidence and the, this is what we think is best and we’re going to really go for this point? How do you balance the two, as a leader?

{audio:0:34:19} I think it depends on where you are, in the crisis. Humility is something that you have to keep. When I say, doing the right thing, for instance, saving the company, it’s a purpose, a vision. At some point, you want to do that before anything else. Saving employment, saving pensions. That’s a top objective. In order to do that, you need to make sure that you keep this capacity to listen and you are not in an ivory tower, thinking you know how to do it. It’s more, what purpose or vision will save this company and how you do it is this capacity to listen to advisors. Ideas don’t only come from one person, from one team, such as the executive team. You have leaders everywhere in an organization. It’s not only the person at the top who is a leader. You could have great leaders in your organization, who are definitely a fantastic source of inspiration and ideas.

{audio:0:35:33} The thing is, to balance, to make sure that you are the person with the vision, but how to do it, is to listen and to have this degree of humility and making sure that, at some point, you are not completely isolated from the rest of the organization. I agree with you, it’s a high risk.

{audio:0:35:56} You mentioned you had this priority where, clearly, saving the company, saving employment, saving pensions, is number one. Did you refer to that framework on most decisions that you had to make, as a leader? How did you approach decision making?

{audio:0:36:10} It’s a purpose. You move towards the purpose, depending on where you are in the crisis management of the company. I think it is something that you keep at the forefront of your mind, when you are in a deep crisis. You need to put that at the top of any decision list and you have to have an agreement, a consensus with your board that, at some point, that’s the top priority. It’s consistent with director responsibilities of any company. When you are in that situation, you have the responsibility of directors that are moving more towards employees and pension. You also have a top priority that is financial governance, with shareholders, but when you are really into crisis, the worst-case scenario is for the company to disappear.

{audio:0:37:23} How did you deal with the emotional challenge, throughout the crisis?

{audio:0:37:28} This is the most difficult one. I think I realized that, after the crisis, when it took me a few months to recharge. After almost a year, I’m not sure it’s gone. The emotional impact, depending on the history of people and where they are coming from, you react differently. I think people were really devastated during the crisis but I was surprised by my resilience. It’s something that you only discover when you go through it. I think the resilience I had was only built by my education, my past – because I had to deal with crises in the past – and also my family, who were there and who accepted, without asking any questions, were supporting me and my friends. I think you need to be surrounded by a team, but also by your family, if you want to survive.

{audio:0:38:47} In addition to that, you need to be very fit for purpose, meaning that you to be healthy and have a level of fitness to deal with the crisis. When you don’t sleep, you don’t really eat properly anymore and you have to be asking all the right questions to your team, 24 hours a day, but also try to answer the questions, as much as possible. You need to be 200%. I don’t have a recipe, to be honest. I’ve seen very strong people being very impacted during the crisis. I think you always learn through the crisis. The obvious answer is, don’t be alone. If you’re alone and you think you can go through a crisis, it’s impossible. You need to be surrounded.

{audio:0:40:02} Crises, in the end, are really down to emotion and feelings because when you lose the emotional protection, because you’re exhausted, you have difficulty controlling your emotions and that’s what you have to expect. You need to be surrounded by people who will be there to support you and to give you love. It’s all about emotions, in the end, how we can get through it.

{audio:0:40:37} How would you define your style, in the workplace? Clearly, it was a very challenging time for everyone. Did you make sure you acted and behaved in a certain way, in front of employees, and controlled your emotions or were you more transparent? How would you say you led the team, during that time?

{audio:0:41:00} I think that you can always read in the books about leadership style and you are seven or 10 or three, etc. It’s very good if you can also have a coach to help you understand where you are, who you are, where you’re coming from and what you’ve learnt or what you think you’ve learnt, during your life. I think the best leadership style is to be all the styles you know, depending on what the situation is. There are situations where you have to show more emotions. There are situations where you just have to set a direction. There are situations where you need to be very open and ask for consensus. I think that if people want to be leading in any type of situation, they need to be able to use a different type of leadership, in different situations.

{audio:0:42:08} When you’re going through a crisis, you need to set a direction. You need to accept that you will be surrounded by people with very difficult emotions. People crying in your office; people just very emotional. You cannot respond to this type of reaction by being very authoritative or even being democratic. Agile leadership is what is necessary to have the capacity to manage any type of situation or crisis situation, I think.

{audio:0:42:55} If you could change one thing about the experience, what would you change?

{audio:0:43:03} If I could change one thing, I think that would maybe to start some projects sooner rather than later. It’s always the same story. With insights, speeding up some projects, that at the end, the output was really very impactful with the organization, but it took us time. I think we were very optimistic, because we were very passionate about the business plan and we thought the project would take us a bit less time than it did. Starting this project sooner rather than later. Timing is the essence. In crisis management, you always underestimate the time you need for a contract to be renegotiated. Maybe, being very passionate, but a little bit less optimistic on timing.

{audio:0:44:12} You mentioned that you learned a lot about yourself. You learned that you were more resilient than you expected. Can you just elaborate on what resilience means to you and how that played out, during the crisis?

{audio:0:44:28} Resilience is, you are in an open plan space, where you’re sitting at a desk and you know that you could be a number of days, a number of hours, from administration, but you cannot release this information to your team. You must be strong and not show anything that could, for anybody around you, show any weakness. They look at you as a leader and they look at you as if you think there is a solution. So you convince them there’s a solution and you convince them it’s not only about saying it, it’s showing it and walking the talk.

{audio:0:45:17} It’s a capacity to really make sure that you show to your team that you have the behavior of a leader, being convinced about what could be done and showing the attitude and behavior that people expect, because they think it is possible. Creating this hope and this trust that something could be done.

{audio:0:45:46} that must be pretty difficult. As you said, maybe you know you are days, hours away from administration, plus you have to have this hard shell or persona. You have to disintermediate the emotional side and what you know and what people can view of you. It’s pretty difficult.

{audio:0:46:09} It’s difficult but, again, remember, it’s keeping in mind what you want to do and the purpose and the vision. You know that if you are showing that you’re desperate, it will not work, because people will just lose faith. Some of your team are aware of the situation, but it’s always the same. It’s about emotion and facts. You have people understanding the facts and that the situation is very difficult. But for emotion, if you are showing some strengths and showing that you think it is possible, it’s very challenging and there are many risks around you, but there is a way. We must all work together, to achieve it.

{audio:0:47:06} We know what the risks are; we know it’s difficult. We know we could be successful, or not. But we are all on board to make it happen. Let’s do it together. The emotional part of what you have to give is very important, because will go with you, will trust what you want to do and will help you to execute it, if they can not only understand the facts, but also follow somebody who is really fueled by this faith that it is possible.

{audio:0:47:48} What would be the major lessons you would give to young leaders, in communicating to your team, during a crisis?

{audio:0:48:00} Don’t be afraid to really communicate about what your strong beliefs are. Don’t be afraid to give inspirational speeches to your team, about why you think it’s possible, with honesty and maybe a lot of personal input on what you are doing and why you are doing it. You need to keep a very consistent vision or purpose, all through the crisis. But I think the honesty and the trust you can create will be how you communicate as a person. As a true person. That’s something that, from time to time, they forget to do. I’m not saying I did it perfectly, throughout the crisis. But the impact you have on people is by them convinced that you are truly trying to make it happen.

{audio:0:49:13} It’s about trust; it’s about honesty; it’s about transparency. It’s about relentlessly communicating, not only by emails. It’s about meeting people in the corridors, on the tarmac, in the hangar and stopping and having small talks and shaking hands. It’s also important for leaders to realize that mental health is not only mental health during a crisis, for you or your team. It’s about the mental health of the organization. Every single little thing that you do, to show that you care, becomes more and more important during a crisis. People have personal challenges. They could be insecure at home and you don’t know that. Being closer to your employees during a crisis will also make them more resilient if they are maybe not as strong as they would like to be.

{audio:0:50:22} Some people, from time to time, just have a breakdown, because they overestimate how strong they are. We had a breakdown in our organization. People completely burnt out by the crisis, etc. When people don’t to go home, you have to send them home. It’s okay; we need you more in one month, because you cannot do that anymore. You are too exhausted and you have to just stay home for a while.

{audio:0:50:52} So mental health of your team, your employees and the HR is playing a critical role in making sure you are aware of what is going on.

{audio:0:51:04} What were the key challenges you faced, climbing this corporate ladder, as a woman?

{audio:0:51:11} I’m trying to coach and mentor some young ladies in this industry. I’m a mentor for a young student. She will have her Master’s in aeronautics from Cranfield University. I was awarded, last year, by IATA, the first Diversity Awards and I reinvested the award to a scholarship in Cranfield. That was a fantastic experience, because you also discover, more in the details, that what you have been through and the challenges you had, the new generation have some challenges, but compared to yours, a number of decades ago, it has improved.

{audio:0:52:16} Is the situation today the one you would like to see? Absolutely not because I think that the progress has been very slow. But there are significant improvements in the number of student percentages in the numbers studying aeronautics or engineering, but not at the same level as what your expectation would be.

{audio:0:52:39} My challenges were that, most of the time, I was the only woman in the room and I could be the first woman to do that. Not everybody around the table understood that I had a real role to play, early in my career and then later. I was very proud of it but, at the same time, I didn’t think it was normal to be the only woman. It’s just a balance. You’re very proud of it but, at the same time, you say to yourself, I shouldn’t be the only woman around the table. I had some challenges in some meetings, in some discussions, but I think it improved, over my career, with my experience. Now I’m also trying to give back to other women, to make sure that they build this confidence that will allow them to do what they want to do, whether that’s being a CEO, being a pilot, being a senior engineer. It’s not only about being CEO of an airline. It’s just being able to do what you want to do.

{audio:0:53:57} What advice would you have today, for young women, in a boardroom, workplace, which has a majority of men? What you would advise them to do or say or behave, to get their voice heard or really open up the conversation, to move in the right direction?

{audio:0:54:21} I think that it’s very easy to caricature the differences between women and men. Firstly, you cannot be successful in any diversity and inclusion, if you don’t engage with your male colleagues. The first promoters of women have to be men. They are ones that will, as chairman or CEO, have the ability to promote, to provide you with additional training, coaching and mentoring. The first thing is, throughout your career, you need to make sure you have mentors that will be there, to support you, making sure that you’re growing your self-confidence, your knowledge, your skills and competences.

{audio:0:55:17} That’s a key part of making it possible to do what you want to do, in your career and be who you want to be. The second thing is just to be true to yourself. I’m not sure that women should be like men. I think that women have to be true to themselves; who they are, what they bring to the table and maybe making sure that there are seats around the table. Bringing a perspective that should not be the same as everyone else’s. A perspective that will be helpful for finding a solution and that could be different and from another angle.

{audio:0:56:01} Be true to yourself, making sure you have a mentor during your career and making sure you build confidence, to ask for promotion, to ask for improvement to your compensation, to ask for a position that, maybe, people would not expect you to apply for. Don’t feel guilty if you decide to have children. Don’t feel guilty going on maternity leave, because having children is one of the most wonderful adventures in your life. It will give you more resilience and more confidence about who you are.

{audio:0:56:45} I think there is a long list of things that I have the opportunity to discuss with the young talent I am trying to mentor. Be true to yourself and try, as soon as possible in your career, be who you want to be, doing what you want to do. It’s a bit like having this purpose and vision, long term. Make sure that any moves you do, in your career, are definitely consistent with that and you will be successful.

{audio:0:57:17} Can you remember any difficult situations or conversations, as you were climbing the ranks?

{audio:0:57:29} I had many discussions, in my career, about gender gap pay, for instance. But it was in those days where regulation and laws that now protect women, were not in place. I’m a very senior lady now, so I have experience and I know these experiences are not happening any more, in 99.9% of the organization. There is now the gender pay gap in most countries and people are very diligent in applying the laws.

{audio:0:58:13} People asking me how I got a job, for instance, today, that would never happen with many men. When you get these type of questions, you try to answer with humor and a smile because it doesn’t make any sense to have a reaction. Even if you feel hurt, you don’t want to show that.

{audio:0:58:46} How did you approach those conversations about pay, years ago, when there was no gender pay gap? How did you fight? How did you get heard? What was the process?

{audio:0:58:57} I didn’t know how to do it, to be honest. When you are really young in your career and you feel very hurt by some of the differences and you don’t know how to manage the discussion, because you don’t have any experience. Most of the time, at your level, you may not have any reference or anybody else to talk to, because all your colleagues are men. Retrospectively, it was not easy. You try but, sometimes, you don’t know if you have a right to do so, because who are you to decide if you think that is wrong. Deep inside, you know that it’s not the right thing. Then things improve, but it takes a long time.

{audio:0:59:53} What advice would you have for a 27 or 28-year-old Christine, today?

{audio:1:00:03} I think, building confidence, sooner rather than later and finding a mentor maybe sooner than I did, in my career. Not to be afraid to ask for advice, at any point in time, both from your close people, but also to others. When you are starting your career, you don’t know if you can ask advice to somebody senior and I can see that when I mentor young ladies. They ask me permission and they don’t know. They don’t want to take my time. No; I want to help you so if you want to call me anytime on your mobile, there are two options. I can take the call and I answer or I cannot take the call and I will call you back. To create this confidence that, if somebody is telling you, you can call my anytime, it’s true. Don’t be afraid of doing it because, most of the time, to be honest, for the mentor, it’s very rewarding to feel that you can help somebody. Most of the time, the questions you ask will take one or two minutes for your mentor to answer. They might say, no, I don’t think it’s a good idea at all. Or, I think it’s good to try; you don’t have anything to lose. Most of the time, it’s just a question to confirm a decision you have already taken or you have a doubt about something.

{audio:1:01:37} For me, the frequency has to be quite significant. Not in time, but in intensity. Maybe for two or three minutes, because waiting for one month, to have a half hour discussion is not as efficient as having small discussions, with the appropriate timing.

Flybe: Leading Europe's Largest Regional Airline

Former CEO at Flybe and Member of Board of Governors at IATA

inpractise.com/articles/leading-flybe

Why is this interview interesting?

Executive Bio

Christine Ourmières-Widener

Former CEO at Flybe and Member of Board of Governors at IATA

Interview Transcript

Related Content

Leadership: Communicating in a Crisis

Former CEO at Flybe and Member of Board of Governors at IATA

Flybe: Taking the Lead

Former CEO at Flybe and Member of Board of Governors at IATA

European Airlines: LCC Vs Flag Carriers

Former CEO at Flybe and Member of Board of Governors at IATA

Leadership in Crisis: Resilience

Former CEO at Flybe and Member of Board of Governors at IATA

Audio

Flybe: Leading Europe's Largest Regional Airline(May 6, 2020)

PARTNER

Speak to Executive