Just to clarify, this refinery would mean that you have to build it, and it would produce more supply for the market during the next cycle? But you say now the demand is not there?

Demand is not there. What the refinery would do is supply more usable grades to the U.S. market. Right now, if you are talking about Birch Cliff, which is a brand of copper scrap, it is 80% pure copper. Everything else has to come out before you can use it, and it might be steel or aluminum. It just needs to be refined in order to use it. Right now, there are not a lot of companies in the United States to do that. We tried doing it just to see what we could get out of it. It was a disaster.

Have mills changed a lot since you started, and the technology used?

The technology, to a certain extent, yes, with regards to defect detection. Eddy current testing was relatively new 15 years ago, and it's a great tool to detect up to five or six thousandths below the surface of a defect. Those are both copper and brass defects, inclusions, and subsurface defects, because they obviously impact the final product. They had a lot of that equipment. I know the copper mill has eddy current and ultrasonic testing. They have invested because the demands went up. The customer base required tighter specifications. When I started in 2009, your typical brass rod tolerance was plus or minus 7,000 for diameter. We had customers who wanted plus or minus 1,000. We added laser mics so we could measure every inch of the bar to make sure we were compliant with what the customer wanted. We charged a premium for it too, because along with the detection equipment, we had auto-reject equipment. I know the copper mills also installed similar products.