So there's a cultural shift with the company growing rapidly and becoming more corporate in the process. But you would say that the shift from Jason to Shane was less of a cultural trigger for change.

From a business perspective, it was the right move because Shane, with his background at Salesforce, fits the mold of a CEO who can lead AppFolio to become the Salesforce of real estate. If any company is going to achieve that, AppFolio, with its cutting-edge technology and resources, is well-positioned. I personally still hold stock with them and believe in the company. I think Shane is the right fit for the CEO role, while Jason served his purpose in getting the company to where it was.

Shortly before Shane joined, Fay Sien Goon joined as CFO and has since left. From what we understand, she was focused on cost management and professionalizing the business. Were there any internal changes in how things were done, particularly in reporting and tracking numbers, once she joined as CFO?

Yes, because at that moment, we decided to focus on profits and got laser-focused on spending. Previously, it was about growing at all costs and reinvesting in the business. Now, we wanted to be profitable and had to watch the money going out. At the VP level, I was a bit shielded from this as we had our own P&L. However, there were company meetings about being stewards of the business and more cost-conscious.

You implied that starting to charge for ACH was helpful to communicate the RIF. Do you think the reverse also applied when communicating with customers, that it was easier to tell customers you're now charging for ACH because you were in the process of laying off 10% of your workforce?

Well, the ACH fees happened much sooner. I think it was in 2022 or early 2023. On the customer side, there was much more bad blood for sure. Some customers were probably very upset about that, and it was just one of those hard business decisions they had to make. I'm sure they might have lost a few customers, but overall, AppFolio is such a sticky product that companies had to stay on. That was much earlier than the reduction in force.